Hi

I never watched that program no. I don't watch much TV but it sounds interesting. Anything that challenges a stereotypical way of thinking has to be good? Good luck with the interview. And the pink. May just get you the job?

Casey, who was it, when asked what the main difference between writing fact and fiction was, said 'fiction has to make sense?'

JB

I think George Formby is great, even if he isn't gay.

Sheila

Yeh, i know JB, i read that recently. I just find it really frustrating especially as film seems to get away with a lot more, in terms of suspending belief for humour.

I was saying in another thread how i had a scene where a character got drunk (female) and couldn't remember the next morning whether she'd had sex or not. I had a report done on it and was told that whole concept was 'very ugly' and to remove it. I thought it was funny, in the context of my book - a bit like that Cameron Diaz/Ashton Kutcher film recently where they get drunk, get married and wake up not quite realising what they've done.

x

Sheila, I'm glad that your appreciation of Formby isn't lessened by his heterosexuality.

Casey, I fail to see how such a scene could be viewed as 'very ugly'. Did they explain any further?

JB

I seem to recall they felt the idea of a woman getting that drunk was what was 'ugly' - and dangerous in that she could have got raped bla bla , unattractive in that she was a mother and this wasn't responsible behaviour - she made all these sorts of criticisms about another storyline where this character met men off an astrological internet dating site- the reader just took her criticism too far imo and it did make me wonder

1) how old she was and
2) whether she had actually read much chick lit/modern WF.

I mean, okay, it may not be the most desirable of behaviour for either of the sexes, but thinks like this happen, right? And, like it or not, alcohol does give rise to some very funny circumstances.

x

Well, of course I'm feeling quite confused, as usual. I researchd more about Luke and it seems he isn't/may not be gay. I've grown very sceptical.

I know Graham Norton is gay because I've read the first volume of his autobiography, and I assume Julian Clary is because of the make-up, but don't shot me down in flames for stereotyping again. What about Frankie Howerd, who was very camp, and that man who plays the only gay in the village in 'Little Britain?' I think I read about him getting married to a man.

A lot of humour relies on stereotyping, not least the image of all women over 40 as sex-starved battle-axes out to stop anyone else having fun and quite incapable of making rational jusgements. I was thinking of Mrs Slocombe and in 'Are You Being Served?', the vehicle for that other stereotypical gay, John Inman.

Sheila

Frankie Howerd was gay as is the Little Britain guy. There are a lot of men in the North who talk and act like Luke. Not gay as much as asexual. Victoria Wood's men in Dinner Ladies are typical as are men like Roy and Norris in Corrie. I think it comes from being raised by strong no nonsense Northern women and picking up their mannerisms.

I haven't npticed them when revisiting my home town in once-industrial Lancs, where the men I know are very keen to emphasise their macho side in case any one might think otherwise. So I'll have to take your word for it, Jem. I was looking along my bookshelves, too, and wondering if I'd made some wrong assumptions. Alan Bennett, my favourite is gay, I know, because I read he's married his long-term partner recently, but he kept quiet for a long time but the diaries of Kenneth Williams contain no admissions. I think in future I'll just suspend judgement.

I'm an admirer of Dinner Ladies ( a boxed set was my husband's Xmas present, but I admit some self-interest) but don't know who you mean about gay characters - I can't remember any. What about the old guy, Godfrey, in 'Dad's Army'? In real life, I always think not being married is a good clue.

Sheial

No, Sheila - the men in Dinner Ladies aren't gay but they have that sort of camp. Northern way of speaking. Like alan Bennett! And Williams was definitely gay!

There are a lot of men in the North

This is certainly true

Sarah

Especially in Alston - the men outnumber the women 10 to 1. Things are so desperate they set up a website to lure... I mean, to attract women to the town.

http://www.villagesincrisis.tk/

No, Jem, it's not a camp way of speaking, it's a dialect.

Yes, I know Kenneth Williams was gay. It was clear from the diaries although never acknowledged publically. Oh, and what about Rock Hudson? A friend of mine was so smitten with him we couldn't bring ourselves to tell her. I read somewhere recently Doris Day was very taken with him too. Another one whose excellent biographies I read - how can you call them autobiographies when they are missing such an important aspect, was Dirk Bogarde. He never once mentioned that the guy he lived with all those years in France and then London at the end was his sexual partner.

I think what I'm saying is that sometimes people aren't as open about their sexuality, as they might be.

I even read in the Daily Mail today (blame give-away DVDs) that French people think most Englishmen are gay. (It could have in the Metro.) The Prime Minister's wife, Mrs Satkovsky, was refuting it.

So maybe those Cumbrian men are just pretending to want some women. They could always move.

Sheila

it's not a camp way of speaking, it's a dialect.

Hard to say what I mean without giving examples but I'm not talking about dialect - it's just a certain way of speaking. There are a lot of Northern men who talk like Les Dawson when he used to pretend to be a woman, with all the mannerisms.

I love the joke about Doris Day. Someon said "I knew DD before she became a virgin."

French people think most Englishmen are gay...The Prime Minister's wife, Mrs Satkovsky, was refuting it.

Was there a cartoon?

Sarah

I do think the papers try to sensationalise outing people. In some cases it works, especially if the person promotes a certain sexual air - ie Rock Hudson or Robbie Williams (he did try telling people he was at one point -just to wind the papers up). But there are other cases where you think, who cares? I'm a big fan of Derren Brown, the mental illusionist, but was surprised to see him make the front pages of the tabloids when he came out. I had never suspected, and when I read it, didn't really care. All it did for me was reinforce the idea that you simply can't tell.