I suppose what people get caught up in is the idea that if it isn't free it must be better. But also the feeling of being alone with your work and not knowing if it's good, bad or indifferent, is painful. But I'd rather spend my money on joining a creative writing group, than on someone making money with a site like the one we're talking about, because it's only confidence in our own work we're after in the end, and something like the London School of Journalism Short Story Writing Course can do that for you.

James,

I think there are two issues here: whether or not a writer should pay an agent/pre-agent for a critique, and whether or not a writer should pay anyone else for a critique. And the answer is probably tied up with what stage your manuscript is at.

When you send something to an agent or publisher, your manuscript should be at the stage where it’s as good as you can make it. Then, an agent or publisher will decide if it’s good enough for them to invest time and money in. If they do, then you will almost certainly be receiving critiques from them, leading to re-writing, editing, etc. But this will not, and should not, cost you any money. The agent or publisher is working with you to produce a book that will sell to your mutual benefit.

However, if you feel you need help to get your manuscript to a professional level, then you may well consider paying for advice in one form or another. Before that, of course, there are writers’ groups you could join for free, and there is this excellent on-line one we’re communicating through. But for unbiased, expert, advice you will need to pay. The question is, how do you find an expert you can trust? The ad pages of Writers’ News and websites galore are full of ‘experts’ willing to help you. Then again, anyone can set themselves up as an expert.

I think it's sensible to be wary of anyone who claims to put your manuscript in the way of agents/editors. The agents and editors I know never look at such sites. They're far too busy and anyway tend to work on the assumption that anyone who's serious enough will seek them out, rather than them have to go looking. And, as you say, who need a medal (other than Mutley!).

There are good professional courses around. The Arvon Foundation, for instance, is well worth checking out. They run week-long courses all year round. I did one many years ago with Stan Barstow as one of the tutors. Apart from the course work itself, I learnt a lot from Stan in the pub when he was telling stories about, well, all sorts of things.

I’ve been writing for years and have increasingly sought ways to get good feed-back on my work. I strongly believe in this process for any writer, both giving and receiving. I’ve just become a tutor on a children’s writing course with the Open College of the Arts (affiliated to the Open University) and am really looking forward to it. I know that one of the benefits will be to improve my own writing.

Good luck,


Terry

Good for you Terry, with your tutoring job.

Yes, I agree. By the law of averages there must be some critique services out there who are worth their salt. It is strange though, how most of the reports in this forum tend towards the negative.

I suppose what most of us call suffer from is an insecurity about our writing, so even if we have to pay someone in order that our works are given time and attention, then so be it.

However, I have found, in the course of submitting to agents and publishers, that I do pick up tips. One agent this week told me they loved the story, but my use of adjectives and adverbs makes the story too 'rich' for their taste. I'm learning that I have to simplify my writing, and I havent paid anyone a penny.



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Then again, it is just HIS opinion. Agents and publishers are notoriously bad for giving any reason for rejection, so perhaps I should be grateful?

James, I believe it's a good sign when they take the trouble to comment. They obviously think you're worth it. And as you say, it's free. There are good agencies out there who offer a consultancy service and will try to place the work for you if they're impressed. I believe Abbey is one, but as with anything you have to investigate and use your own judgement.

Yes, I've heard that Abbey are actually a good service and they are on my 'submit to' list. I just found his comment a little disheartening after already editing 20,000 'top heavy' words from the narrative.

So far, i've had 15 rejections, and ALL of them seem full of praise. I know I should find this encouraging, but instead, I find it fairly frustrating (as I'm sure you do). Anyway, I think what goes against me is that the novel isnt particularly mainstream, and I keep getting this 'pass the buck' vibe from agents.

Abbey, if they agree to take a look, will charge me 100 quid for a full critique. I guess its worth a shot. I am really cheesed off because the worst thing happened - last year, BEFORE any editing or revision, an editor of a fairly big company wrote to me to say he loved the story, but his list was full, so to send it to him again towards the end of this year and, basically, he'd read the whole thing.

Guess what? He doesnt work there anymore. Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhhh!!!!


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I'm sending it anyway. Pretending that I am completely oblivious to the above information. I'm even going to mark the package 'requested' and addressed to the original editor.

Basically, I'm desperate. ha ha.

James, maybe they'll forward it to him, but if they don't and return it, then find out where he's gone and send it there.
You're obviously determined - what is it they say? A professional writer is an amateur who didn't give up. I think that applies to both the writing and the submitting. Maybe start something new too, if you haven't already.

Lavelle,

have just joined here and recognised your name from nooza. are you in touch with anyone else from that forum, only a friend of mine is trying to get in touch with nooza, but they seem to have disappeared, you can't get access to the website and the phone number he has for them is number unobtainable! i was just wondering if anyone else has any contact details or is in touch with anyone else from the forum there who might have more information. this place seems pretty friendly, yet another place for me to spend more time chatting and not writing!! clare :-)

Hi Clare,

I don't think Lavelle stayed with us. I certainly haven't seen any activity from her in recent months. I tried to have a look at Nooza the other night - just for old times' sake - but got the same response as your friend. I would guess they've gone belly up.

Forget Nooza and stick with WW. It's the best site around for writers.

Dee

Hi Dee,

thanks for your reply. I guess Nooza is no more. I just feel sorry for all those people who must have paid for reviews and didn't get them. if theres no access to the nooza site, then theres no way of getting your review.

Clare.

I just hope they can get their money back. I don't think Nooza was a scam... I just think it didn't work for us as writers...

Dee.

They seem to be back (after technical difficulties). I managed to cancel my cheque...

Just had my attention drawn to this thread because of references to the Abbey Agency. Just to warn you that we have recently had three complaints about Abbey not delivering. One WW subscriber paid £80 and has been waiting since May 2003 for a response. Another has been waiting over a year. It is, I'm told, very difficult to get a response from the agency - whether by e-mail, phone or whatever. Maybe there are plausible reasons for the delays (I have contacted Abbey, asking them for clarification) but in the meantime, think on before parting with any money.
If anybody has any information on Abbey or on any other publisher, agent or whatever, please let me know. The WriteWords Directory is the place where the most up-to-date information can be shared. We are, I must add, interested in the good news as well as the bad. It's always worth a look at the relevant Directory entry before sending work out - I update the entries as quickly as I can on receipt of information.
Richard (WW Directory Editor)

Just a quickie. I'd never heard of Nooza (or Abbey) until today but regardless of the commercial imperatives driving these enterprises, I'm baffled as to why anyone would want to pay to have their material read by people they don't know.

I see that in Nooza today someone's having a pop at WriteWords (well, I think it's us they're talking about) and I don't want to be seen to be having a pop back, but hey, c'mon now: 25,000 word review for £65? How the hell can you constructively comment on the flow, engineering, construct of a complete book on a 25,000 word extract?

Nope. I'm not knocking Nooza. But I will say that from my 'umble perspective at least, nothing -- not ebooks, not vanity publishing, not services by utterly unknown individuals charging monies for what may or may not be skilled criticism -- ranks as a sensible alternative to the old way of doing things: write it; submit it; hope it's publishable. And if criticism, contact, encouragement or whatever is needed, then look no further than WriteWords.

I haven't as yet met a single member in person. But I know from what they write themselves that they're as good at timely, responsible, and constructive criticism than any service which I might have to pay for -- and that as individuals, they're the people I need when the going gets rough.

They're all in the same boat as me and we're either rowing or bailing but so what: I don't have to pay to contact them and I don't have to wonder about their calibre as critics because it's their work, and their words, that're on display here.

Why do so many aspirant authors seem to want to put so much trust in unknown people /services offering critique services? I mean, let's get it straight: who crits the critics? Just because they say they're good. . . well; are they????

Richard

Richard, you raise a lot of important issues. Perhaps the first of them, for me at least, is the fact that you are an excellent writer. Not just in terms of content (particularly humour) but also in your use of written English, punctuation, etc – and I emphasise ‘use’ here: you know the rules so well that you are able to make your words fly rather than stumble around trying not to sound awkward. Then again, you were a journalist for many years, which must have given you plenty of hard-lesson practice in putting words together, not to mention on-going feed-back, perhaps even mentoring elements from editors and peers. Some time ago, I joined a journalists’ e-discussion group and have benefited greatly from their exchanges of views on technique, professionalism, and basically how to tell a great story well. And whereas I agree with you on the value of WriteWords in terms of people providing timely, honest and useful advice, it does have its limits.

The issue for fiction writers, especially (but not exclusively) new ones, these days is how do they get good feed-back on their work? You say, in effect, that there are just two options: submit your work and, if you need feed-back, put it on WriteWords. Well, the trouble with the first is that, even if it’s good, the chances are that it will be rejected these days. This might not be such a blow for an experienced writer, who realises that this is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of his work, more the current needs of the publisher/agent. But it can be very dispiriting for new writers, especially when it’s normally accompanied by no feed-back whatsoever. Yes, WriteWords is great for honest, short, sometimes pithy reflections. But that still leaves a big gap for having one’s entire manuscript looked at, and maybe even overhauled.

Which brings me on to the issue you raise concerning critique services. First, I completely agree with you: why would anyone pay to have their work reviewed by someone they don’t know? And by ‘someone’ I’d include the agency itself as well as any individual reviewer. However, there are good reviewers around who can make a big difference to one’s book. At risk of sounding big-headed, feed-back tells me that I’m a good manuscript reviewer. The most recent book I assessed was a 74,000 word children’s fantasy. I wrote a 19 page report on it (although I should stress that that was probably too much, given my time and the fee involved), with probably another 15 pages worth of notes on the ms itself. I work fast but this still took me 18 hours of solid work. The writer had asked for various specific points to be looked at, which I did. The idea was not to tell him how to make his book publishable (I don’t think anyone can do that) but, if he follows the advice, he can produce a much more readable book. He is a serious writer, in that he is prepared to keep working at a book until he gets it right, but he also needs help with basic elements such as plot structure and logistics, character definition, show-not-tell, etc. Now, I like to write a few paragraphs of comments on WriteWords writers’ work, but I can’t do a full assessment on a ms for free. Also – and this is not a quantifiable element – a good manuscript service does have connections. One that I work for, for instance, uses readers who are all published writers, or agents/editors. This means there are inevitable connections with the publishing industry. One new writer recently sent in her manuscript; the reader working on it liked it so much she showed it to her agent who also liked it and arranged an auction between 3 publishers with the result the book is about to be published with lots of promotion. Yes, this is not common, and yes it is possible that the book may have been picked up directly by an agent. But it does show the value of contacts related to an assessment.